Buddhism and Christianity
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Originally posted by paperflower:.....comes from samsara and lives in samsara? god is made out of human beings and not human beings made out of god? there is actually no true or false. many different cultures have different depiction of god - some as formless, some with forms, some say there is only one true god, some say there are many. sometimes i look into the sky and watch the clouds.... why the cloud higher is white and the cloud lower is dark........ but which one is true cloud then? well, there is no true or false.... they are clouds after all and it depends how your mind sees the "cloud"......
Paperflower & Oldman,Originally posted by OldMan:i concur with you, the christian god is just but one of the many gods, he has not and will not attain nirvana.
You guys voice my sentiments exactly. I have been pondering over this idea over the past six or seven years.
The Judeo-Christian God possessed immense powers, as a being in the Deva realm would have. He is able to nuke cities at will, turn people into pillars of salt, and imbue his followers with great powers. At the same time however, he is not above the human sentiments and weaknesses of vanity, selfishness and sometimes outright cruelty, although he does at times exhibit qualities of loving kindness and compassion.
A being in the Deva realm, though powerful and can have a very long life span, is not immortal. Hence in the past few centuries we do not see anymore manifestation of the Judeo-Christian God's powers. Could he have passed onto another realm? A good portion of the Christian community has been revolving around justifying and rationalizing God's actions, and in later centuries, the lack thereof, to the extent of developing the concept of apologetics (defending the faith). Why would one need to defend against the existence of something if that something is patently clear? I do not have to develop arguments to prove that the OCBC building is standing right by Chulia Street. This all gels with my 'hypotheses' here.
The devil, as documented in the Judeo-Christian texts, bears incredible resemblence to an Asura insofar as the Devil also posses immense powers (though lesser than the Deva), and is at constant war with the Deva.
However Oldman, I am not sure I agree that the Judeo-Christian God will never attain nirvana. Despite his human weaknesses and cruelty, it is clear that he has buddha nature and is capable of great compassion. -
I think a lot of misconceptions abt the " Judeo-Christian " God is he possess human sentiments and weaknesses. In my opinion, like what u have said, "he" is just God, and what he do is beyond our comprehension. As many have pointed out, if we mortals can comprehend who God is/Why he do things like that, we as mortals would be higher than the creator already.
"My thoughts are not your thoughts, nor are your ways My ways,' says the Lord.
'For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are My ways higher than your ways,
And My thoughts than your thoughts." Isaiah 55:8-9
IMHO, rather than thinking God possess human traits, I would think humans possess his traits becoz we are made in his image, but as humans we are not perfect, tat's why a lot of times we resort to do evil.
BTW, the devil, in Christianity, is a fallen angel. He is God's creation and is not on the same status as God. In fact, angels are created to be a little lower even than humans.
Some early Christians have turned cultic (e.g. marcions, cathars) becoz they cannot recouncil between the "cruel" god in the old testament and the "good" god in the new testament that they actualy think there are two gods. The cruel god is the demiurge who is the lesser god who created this world (simply based on a quote in the bible which refer to "the god of this world") and the good god is who sent Jesus to save us.
"Orthodox" Christians are for the idea that God is the same God yesterday, today and thereafter. God do destroy but whether he is "cruel" or not, I do not have an answer for u, becoz everything is within his plan for us.
And furthermore, we often forgot that God's justice is not human justice. As his creations, we cannot and will not be able to put God on trial and judge him.Originally posted by Beyond Religion:Paperflower & Oldman,
You guys voice my sentiments exactly. I have been pondering over this idea over the past six or seven years.
The Judeo-Christian God possessed immense powers, as a being in the Deva realm would have. He is able to nuke cities at will, turn people into pillars of salt, and imbue his followers with great powers. At the same time however, he is not above the human sentiments and weaknesses of vanity, selfishness and sometimes outright cruelty, although he does at times exhibit qualities of loving kindness and compassion.
A being in the Deva realm, though powerful and can have a very long life span, is not immortal. Hence in the past few centuries we do not see anymore manifestation of the Judeo-Christian God's powers. Could he have passed onto another realm? A good portion of the Christian community has been revolving around justifying and rationalizing God's actions, and in later centuries, the lack thereof, to the extent of developing the concept of apologetics (defending the faith). Why would one need to defend against the existence of something if that something is patently clear? I do not have to develop arguments to prove that the OCBC building is standing right by Chulia Street. This all gels with my 'hypotheses' here.
The devil, as documented in the Judeo-Christian texts, bears incredible resemblence to an Asura insofar as the Devil also posses immense powers (though lesser than the Deva), and is at constant war with the Deva.
However Oldman, I am not sure I agree that the Judeo-Christian God will never attain nirvana. Despite his human weaknesses and cruelty, it is clear that he has buddha nature and is capable of great compassion. -
Hmm... I am not sure... You are saying that it is wrong if I commit genocide, but if God does the same thing then it is ok because He is God.Originally posted by laoda99:I think a lot of misconceptions abt the " Judeo-Christian " God is he possess human sentiments and weaknesses. In my opinion, like what u have said, "he" is just God, and what he do is beyond our comprehension. As many have pointed out, if we mortals can comprehend who God is/Why he do things like that, we as mortals would be higher than the creator already.
To me this is a dangerous sentiment. There has to be an absolute set of moral principles based on compassion and the universal "golden rule" which even God is not above. Without this, religions can easily be used by men to commit ghastly acts. (Just think how much suffering the verse "Thou shall not suffer a witch to live" has caused...) -
in fact that's what's happening right now in the world, people and countries doing evil in the name of their gods.Originally posted by Beyond Religion:Hmm... I am not sure... You are saying that it is wrong if I commit genocide, but if God does the same thing then it is ok because He is God.
To me this is a dangerous sentiment. There has to be an absolute set of moral principles based on compassion and the universal "golden rule" which even God is not above. Without this, religions can easily be used by men to commit ghastly acts. (Just think how much suffering the verse "Thou shall not suffer a witch to live" has caused...) -
i thought that buddhism was more of a philosophy?
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it's ideology of the non-existence of an omnipotent supreme being makes it a religion.Originally posted by coffeeortea:i thought that buddhism was more of a philosophy? -
Wah! So happening here ah...
Btw i wish to clarify something there may be political violence in predominantly Buddhist communities (such as Úrî Lanka where the Buddhist Sinhalese are
fighting a violent war with the Hindu Tamil Tigers) however Buddhists do not mix . religion with politics. Many Sinhalese Buddhists are against violence but the highest political decisions are made by the powers that be, not the practising Buddhists, who are certainly not the cause of the violence -
more happening hereOriginally posted by neutral_onliner:Wah! So happening here ah...
http://www.sgforums.com/?action=thread_display&thread_id=189756&page=10
hey...what abt violence btw burma and thailand (read it in my history books). Both are buddhist countries but they like enemies har? Cannot forgive? -
Sorry i TOTALLY DISAGREE wf u and tat 's not for the case of buddhists .we do not believe in a Creator or an Almighty God who is responsible for all our actions .Buddhist do not accept the belief that this world is merely a place of trial and testing rather this world can be made a place where we can attain the highest perfection. And perfection is synonymous with happiness. to the Buddha, man is not an experiment in life created by somebody which can be done away with when unwantedOriginally posted by laoda99:I think a lot of misconceptions abt the " Judeo-Christian " God is he possess human sentiments and weaknesses. In my opinion, like what u have said, "he" is just God, and what he do is beyond our comprehension. As many have pointed out, if we mortals can comprehend who God is/Why he do things like that, we as mortals would be higher than the creator already.
"My thoughts are not your thoughts, nor are your ways My ways,' says the Lord.
'For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are My ways higher than your ways,
And My thoughts than your thoughts." Isaiah 55:8-9
IMHO, rather than thinking God possess human traits, I would think humans possess his traits becoz we are made in his image, but as humans we are not perfect, tat's why a lot of times we resort to do evil.
BTW, the devil, in Christianity, is a fallen angel. He is God's creation and is not on the same status as God. In fact, angels are created to be a little lower even than humans.
Some early Christians have turned cultic (e.g. marcions, cathars) becoz they cannot recouncil between the "cruel" god in the old testament and the "good" god in the new testament that they actualy think there are two gods. The cruel god is the demiurge who is the lesser god who created this world (simply based on a quote in the bible which refer to "the god of this world") and the good god is who sent Jesus to save us.
"Orthodox" Christians are for the idea that God is the same God yesterday, today and thereafter. God do destroy but whether he is "cruel" or not, I do not have an answer for u, becoz everything is within his plan for us.
And furthermore, we often forgot that God's justice is not human justice. As his creations, we cannot and will not be able to put God on trial and judge him.
To depend on others for salvation is negative, but to depend on oneself is positive. Dependence on others means surrendering one's intelligence and efforts.
Everything which has improved and uplifted humanity has been done by man himself. Man's improvement must come from his own knowledge, understanding, effort and experience and not from heaven or gods. Man should not be a slave even to the great forces of nature because even though he is crushed by them he remains superior by virtue of his understanding of them. Buddhism carries the Truth further: it shows that by means of understanding, man can also control his environment and circumstances. He can cease to be crushed by them and use their power to raise himself to great heights of spirituality and nobility.
Buddhism gives due credit to man's intelligence and effort for his achievements rather than to supernatural beings. True religion means faith in the good of man rather than faith in unknown forces. In that respect, The Buddha taught that what man needs for his happiness is not a religion with a mass of dogmas and theories but knowledge of the cosmic nature and its relationship to the law of cause and effect.
Btw we respect Buddha oso cause he free our mind from a curse which has been ensalving our human mind for centuries tat's the illusion that salvation can be obtain by surrendering our dignities as human ,begging ,asking for forgiveness,bribery(be obedience in order to gain something) thru the so-called gods.To us no practice could be more humiliating or degrading to man thru such practises.Such salvation is not any self-respecting man would care to get.
Rather buddha made us reliase that man is supreme, a master of his own destiny, it follows that he must also be responsible for his own action and inaction.
"No one saves us but ourselves,
No one can and no one may.
We ourselves must walk the path,
But Buddhas clearly show the way". -- Dp 165 -
well as i have said Buddhists are against violence but the highest political decisions are made by the powers that be, not the practising Buddhists, who are certainly not the cause of the violence This go same to burma and thailand.Originally posted by laoda99:more happening here
http://www.sgforums.com/?action=thread_display&thread_id=189756&page=10
hey...what abt violence btw burma and thailand (read it in my history books). Both are buddhist countries but they like enemies har? Cannot forgive?
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wah....no hard feelings lehOriginally posted by neutral_onliner:it shows that by means of understanding, man can also control his environment and circumstances. He can cease to be crushed by them and use their power to raise himself to great heights of spirituality and nobility.
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anyway, for the above in red, so far how u think man has attained in controlling his environment and circumstances, after over 2000 yrs buddha has preached? -
tot the thai pple believe the thai king is a buddha also...why he approve of war then?Originally posted by neutral_onliner:well as i have said Buddhists are against violence but the highest political decisions are made by the powers that be, not the practising Buddhists, who are certainly not the cause of the violence This go same to burma and thailand.
and dalai lamai...he is a reincarnation of buddha...isn't he mixing politics with religion then by fighting against chinese govt?
my opinion is, no religion/faith/whatever is devoid of violence. Undoubtedly, Buddhism has the best track record, but it doesn't mean it is excluded from having violence. -
i think u r misinformed. dalai lamai DID NOT FIGHT against the chinese govt.Rather he work thru peace , compassion and understanding.It is bcause of such virtues that the west is so impressed that he was awared Nobel Peace Award.(oso the west think if tis were to happen to other religions there would be many attacks from them)Originally posted by laoda99:tot the thai pple believe the thai king is a buddha also...why he approve of war then?
and dalai lamai...he is a reincarnation of buddha...isn't he mixing politics with religion then by fighting against chinese govt?
my opinion is, no religion/faith/whatever is devoid of violence. Undoubtedly, Buddhism has the best track record, but it doesn't mean it is excluded from having violence. -
I don't think the Dalai Lama did anything against the teaching of Buddhism... He got forcibly evicted by the Chinese Communists, so he is just fighting for his right of existence.Originally posted by laoda99:tot the thai pple believe the thai king is a buddha also...why he approve of war then?
and dalai lamai...he is a reincarnation of buddha...isn't he mixing politics with religion then by fighting against chinese govt?
my opinion is, no religion/faith/whatever is devoid of violence. Undoubtedly, Buddhism has the best track record, but it doesn't mean it is excluded from having violence.
And how does he 'fight' against the Chinese government? Not by bombing and killing, but through compassion and loving kindness.
If the Dalai Lama had subscribed to a monotheistic religion instead of Buddhism, you can bet that there will be a bomb going off in China every one hour...
Such is the uniqueness of Buddhism: Compassion is a feeling that emanates from us spontaneously, and is to be shown to all beings without exception, period. It is not a directive dictated to us by a higher being, who may retract that show of compassion to a group of people not in the good books of the being (and who, by the way, does not have to observe that directive himself) -
in buddhism , buddha teaches interconnectness.It is during the recents years wf so many environment problems tat pples r now taking a serious look at tis teaching.(which r veri admired by scientists and environmentalists.U could do some research on tat or ask some other forummersOriginally posted by laoda99:wah....no hard feelings leh
anyway, for the above in red, so far how u think man has attained in controlling his environment and circumstances, after over 2000 yrs buddha has preached?
gtg... nice talking to u -
u sure no violence in tibet b4 becoz of dalai lamai?Originally posted by Beyond Religion:I don't think the Dalai Lama did anything against the teaching of Buddhism... He got forcibly evicted by the Chinese Communists, so he is just fighting for his right of existence.
And how does he 'fight' against the Chinese government? Not by bombing and killing, but through compassion and loving kindness.
tot buddhists cannot fight....wonder how is fighting sanctioned under buddhism? -
so last time pple dun take his teachings seriously?Originally posted by neutral_onliner:in buddhism , buddha teaches interconnectness.It is during the recents years wf so many environment problems tat pples r now taking a serious look at tis teaching.(which r veri admired by scientists and environmentalists.U could do some research on tat or ask some other forummers
gtg... nice talking to u -
For a start, do you mean fighting as in unarmed combat, or fighting as in a war?Originally posted by laoda99:u sure no violence in tibet b4 becoz of dalai lamai?
tot buddhists cannot fight....wonder how is fighting sanctioned under buddhism?
To be honest, this is something I have been exploring, and I once posted under another forum asking the same question to my fellow Buddhists.
To the best of my knowledge, Buddhist teaching prohibits killing under any circumstances. This position differed markedly from most other religions, which allow you to kill in self-defense (and also when God sanctions it!)
So what am I to do if I come face to face with an enemy who has every intention of killing me and my loved ones? What am I to do if I am put in a situation where someone has to die by my action or in action? Eg. Should I swerve my car to avoid a jay-walking pedestrain and risk hitting and killing another pedestrain?
I was told by some fellow Buddhists, instead of going through these increasingly difficult scenarios, concentrate on cultivating loving-kindness, compassion and wisdom. When that time comes, I would then have the wisdom to do the right thing.
I did my NS duty as a combat soldier. If and when Singapore comes under attack by a foreign power, I would of course take up arms to defend my country and my loved ones... and I will shoot to kill if I have to, but I will spare my enemy's life whenever it is humanely possible to. I will also treat all POWs with kindness and compassion.
I definitely won't go shouting "NAMO OMITOFU" and machine-gun all the wounded enemy soldiers
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I mean fighting as in a war;
So for urself, u feel it's ok to kill if u have to protect urself/ur love one/ur country?
So if the person who want to kill me is killed by me first, it is just his bad karma?
Any other views? Is there any Buddhist scripture which sanction war? What does Buddhist scriptures say abt war or the scenarios u mention below?Originally posted by Beyond Religion:For a start, do you mean fighting as in unarmed combat, or fighting as in a war?
To be honest, this is something I have been exploring, and I once posted under another forum asking the same question to my fellow Buddhists.
To the best of my knowledge, Buddhist teaching prohibits killing under any circumstances. This position differed markedly from most other religions, which allow you to kill in self-defense (and also when God sanctions it!)
So what am I to do if I come face to face with an enemy who has every intention of killing me and my loved ones? What am I to do if I am put in a situation where someone has to die by my action or in action? Eg. Should I swerve my car to avoid a jay-walking pedestrain and risk hitting and killing another pedestrain?
I was told by some fellow Buddhists, instead of going through these increasingly difficult scenarios, concentrate on cultivating loving-kindness, compassion and wisdom. When that time comes, I would then have the wisdom to do the right thing.
I did my NS duty as a combat soldier. If and when Singapore comes under attack by a foreign power, I would of course take up arms to defend my country and my loved ones... and I will shoot to kill if I have to, but I will spare my enemy's life whenever it is humanely possible to. I will also treat all POWs with kindness and compassion.
I definitely won't go shouting "NAMO OMITOFU" and machine-gun all the wounded enemy soldiers -
I won't make it a general statement that I will allow myself to kill to protect my loved ones... That is simplifying matters to the same extent of the monotheistic religions. a la killing allowed in self-defenseOriginally posted by laoda99:I mean fighting as in a war;
So for urself, u feel it's ok to kill if u have to protect urself/ur love one/ur country?
So if the person who want to kill me is killed by me first, it is just his bad karma?
Any other views? Is there any Buddhist scripture which sanction war? What does Buddhist scriptures say abt war or the scenarios u mention below?
Having said that, I do not think Buddhism prohibits taking up arms, else it will be banned by the government...
But yeah, I am also interested to hear the opinions of my fellow Buddhists here. -
Eh? Got meh?Originally posted by laoda99:tot the thai pple believe the thai king is a buddha also...why he approve of war then?
There will be NO Buddhas appearing until the next Buddha, called the Maitreya Buddha/Mettaya Buddha
- which will never come within our lifetime. -
Ok pls let me make tis clear God-centred religions are founded on the God idea.Insofar as they place God first, they cannot really give the highest priority to life. A religion that teaches that God created man, can at best claim by that fact that human life is precious above all else.Whereas for buddhism is life-centred religion.A truly humanistic religion, one that really cares for mankind and the world.Indeed, only a life-centred religion can be truly environment-friendly and compassionate to all beings.Only a life-centred religion can be truly tolerant of others.Originally posted by laoda99:I mean fighting as in a war;
So for urself, u feel it's ok to kill if u have to protect urself/ur love one/ur country?
So if the person who want to kill me is killed by me first, it is just his bad karma?
Any other views? Is there any Buddhist scripture which sanction war? What does Buddhist scriptures say abt war or the scenarios u mention below?
since you ask so do let me cite a different attitude between christianity and buddhism towards wars
The Bible tells us that there is a time for hate and a time for war (Ex 3:8 and it is widely recognized today that those great evils depend upon each other. As we have seen, God is quite capable of hatred and, not surprisingly is therefore often involved in war.
The Lord is a man of war (Ex 15:3).
The Lord your God is in your midst, a warrior who gives victory (Zeph 3:17).
The Lord goes forth like a mighty man, like a man of war he stirs up his fury, he cries out, he shouts aloud, he shows himself mighty against the enemy (Is 42:13).
When I sharpen my flashing sword and my hand grasps it in judgment, I will take vengeance on my adversaries and repay those who hate me. I will make my arrows drunk with blood while my sword devours flesh: the blood of the slain and the captives, the heads of the enemy leaders (Deut 32:41-42).
For centuries Christians have been inspired by these Bible passages, which encourage and even glorify war, to use violence to spread their religion. Even today there is a distinctly militaristic flavour about Christianity. The Salvation Army with its motto "Blood and Fire"; the hymns that speak about "Onward Christian soldiers marching as to war"; the saying "Praise the Lord and pass the ammunition", etc. The Bible contains dozens of examples of God helping his devotees to capture cities, slaughter civilian populations and defeat armies (for example Num 21:1-3, Num 31:1-12, Deut 2:32-34, Deut 3:3-7, Josh 11:6-11, etc.). Concerning captives in war God says:
And you shall destroy all the peoples that the Lord your God gives over to you, your eye shall not pity them (')eat 7:16).
When the Lord your God gives them over to you and you defeat them you must utterly destroy them and show no mercy to them (Deut 7:2).
What was the Buddha's attitude to war? There is no example of the Buddha ever praising war, encouraging war, or going to war himself. On the contrary, he urged all to live in peace and harmony and is described in this way:
Re is a reconciler of those who are in conflict and an encourager of those who are already united, rejoicing in peace, loving peace, delighting in peace, he is one who speaks in praise of peace (Digha Nikaya, Sutta No.1).
He set an example by being a man of peace
Abandoning killing, the monk Gotarna lives refraining from killing, he is without stick or sword, he lives with care, compassion and sympathy for others (Digha Nikaya, Sutta No.1).
The Buddha was not content with merely speaking in favour of peace or with being peaceful himself. He actively promoted peace by trying to stop war. When hi relatives were about to go to war over the waters of the Rohini River, the Buddha did not take sides, urge them on, give them advice on tactics, or tell them to show no mercy to their adversaries, as God would have done. Instead he stood between the two factions and said, "What is more valuable, blood or water?" The soldier replied, "Blood is more valuable, sir." Then the Buddha said, "Then is it not unbecoming to spill blood for water?" Both sides dropped their weapons and peace was restored (Dhammapada Atthakata Book l5,l). The Buddha had put aside hatred and filled his mind with love and compassion, so approving of war was impossible for him.
"Though in their ignorance many will curse and
abuse us and beat us with swords and staves; we will endure it all."
--Lotus Sutra: 13
"Repeatedly shall we be driven out and exiled afar from our monasteries. Such evils will be our ills for remembering the Buddha's command, but we will endure all these things."
--Lotus Sutra: 13
May they know what they did were wrong
May they be truly awakened to loving-kindness & compassion one day -
sentient beings tend to notice the "bad" sides of things more than the "good" sides, vice versa. an over attachment to dualism...... a course of "sufferings". an oscar winner takes perhaps 10years to practice acting but the moment of glorious award is only 10mins(or less) on stage. likewise, a clean good virtuous man receives an almost un-noticed attention but once he tarnishes his hands with blood or dirt, he is the talk of the town....
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"The censored publicity materials at the Yale University Press website describe a book telling "the unexpected story of (King Bhumibol Adulyadej's) life and 60-year rule — how a Western-raised boy came to be seen by his people as a living Buddha...."Originally posted by An Eternal Now:Eh? Got meh?
There will be NO Buddhas appearing until the next Buddha, called the Maitreya Buddha/Mettaya Buddha - which will never come within our lifetime.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bhumibol_Adulyadej -
the thai king is not a buddha, he's just pro-democracyOriginally posted by laoda99:tot the thai pple believe the thai king is a buddha also...why he approve of war then?